Commentary on BBC’s Jeremy Bowen interview with leader of HTS Ahmed al-Sharaa

Listen to the interview on the BBC's The Global Story
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct6dxb

9:49
JB We are meeting in the presential palace – that does that mean you are going to be the new Syrian president?
AS I think it is too early to talk about the new Syrian President. First Syria should go through at least 3 stages. The first is taking over the government which happened during the last weeks. Secondly there should be an invitation to a national conference that brings together all Syrians. It is through this conference that Syrians can vote on crucial issues such as terminating the constitution, dissolving the parliament and forming a consolidative council. This will fill the constitutional and parliamentary vacuum. During the interim period until the country is ready to hold elections.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY: The present secular constitution, which was last updated in 2012 will be ”terminated”. This is what we saw in Egypt 2012-13 when the Muslim Brotherhood came to power and then produced an Islamist constitution. The actual guarantees of FoRB in the existing Syrian constitution were limited,   but Christians have historically had a significant degree of freedom under the ruling Ba’ath Party. Although, this came at the price of state surveillance and limitation of activity to anyone other than Christians.
The interim government is drawn from HTS officials who were administering Idlib province which it controlled – and what happened there, including violent crackdowns on any demonstration against the government.

JB So you are talking about elections- does that mean you would like this country to become a democracy?
AS People have the right to choose who will rule them, and people have the right to choose who represents them in the People's Assembly and the house of representatives.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY: This is not actually answering the question. In fact, it allows anything from western style democracy to what happens in Iran, where candidates have to be preapproved by an Islamic authority. It also needs to be said that in shari’a, “law” is not made by parliaments but “discovered” by Islamic scholars studying Islamic texts. The role of parliament is therefore to pass administrative regulations which implement the requirements of shari’a for the country.

JB You have made a lot of promises – you have said you will respect the mosaic of different sectarian groups here in Syria, minorities as well. Are you going to keep those promises?
AS The Syrian populations has lived together for thousands of years. We’re going to discuss all of it. We’re going to have dialogue and make sure everyone is represented. The old regime always played on sectarian divisions – but we won’t. We were welcomed in all the big cities by all the sects. I think the revolution can contain everybody.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY: 
In 2014 HTS leader Ahmed al-Sharaa gave an interview to al-Jazeera TV in which he stated that Syria should be ruled by shari’a and non-Muslim minorities should NOT be accommodated.  In Idlib province which they have controlled since 2016 they operate shari’a courts and proscribe the death penalty of execution for apostasy i.e. any Muslim who converts to another religion such as Christianity.
“Sects” and “sectarian divisions” refers to different branches of Islam - Sunni, Shi’a, Alawi etc. Minorities refers to non-Muslim religious minorities i.e. Christians and Yazidis. Syria has indeed been a mosaic of religions in the past with very large Christian and Jewish populations throughout most of the past two millenia (at the start of the 20th century the Jewish population was estimated at 100,000, but almost all who remained left in 1992).  However, during that history   both Christians and Jews lived  under conditions of dhimmitude. This is based on the Pact of Umar, which according to early Islamic history, Umar the second caliph (i.e. successor to Muhammad as leader of the Islamic community) imposed on the Christians of Syria. It allows Christians and Jews who have been conquered in jihad to continue living in the area subject to keeping a set of strict conditions set out in the dhimma contract symbolised by payment of jizya. Any perceived breach of the these means the person is no longer treated as a dhimmi, but as a harbi (enemy) who may be killed with impunity by any Muslim. 

JB So this isn’t going to be some kind of a caliphate? or you are not going to make Syria into a country like Afghanistan? Because there are people who say, that maybe you want to behave like the Taliban?
AS There are many differences between Syria and the Taliban. The way we govern is different. Afghanistan is a tribal community. Syria is completely different. The people just don’t think in the same way. The Syrian government and the ruling system will be in line with Syria’s history and culture.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY

Afghanistan under the Taliban is officially entirely Islamic, and this has recently been enforced by its 21 August 2024  law on the propagation of virtue and prohibition of vice, which bans anything, even cultural celebrations, which are not specifically Islamic.  The only religious minorities to have been officially recognised by any recent Afghan government are Hindus and Sikhs who before the 1995-98 period of Taliban rule were estimated to be 250,000.  During this period they were in effect treated as dhimmis and forced to wear yellow badges similar to those the Nazis forced on the Jews. The last remnants of them fled the second Taliban takeover in 2021. As no recent Afghan government has ever recognised the existence of an Afghan church all Christians in Afghanistan are regarded as converts from Islam and therefore subject to the shari’a penalty for apostasy i.e. death, even if they are second, third or fourth generation Christians. However, the church in Syria has been officially recognised since the earliest years of Christianity. 
So, when al-Sharaa says that Syria won’t be like the Taliban, but  “The Syrian government and the ruling system will be in line with Syria’s history and culture” – the implication is that it will be an Islamic government with shari’a enforcement and Syrian Christians will be treated as dhimmis – as they were for centuries prior to the collapse of the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1. 

12:03 -16:21
JB There are many Syrians who said to me, for example when I went to Sednaya prison, and I spoke to families of people who had disappeared into that prison, probably had been killed and many of those Syrians said to me that they can’t face the future until they get justice from the Assad regime. One man said to me “I need to see Assad’s people hanging, in public, dead”. How are you going to satisfy people who feel that they really deserve justice after 54 years of the crimes of the Assad regime?
AS There are basic principles for the revolution. Revolution is not meant for revenge. It should not be vengeful. There is a group of people who committed these crimes in Sednaya prison, chemical attacks and the massacres committed in Houla and Beniyas. We are trying to get the names of those people and pursue them through the justice ministry and the public prosecution.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY

These were both massacres carried out by Assad state forces – the Houla massacre in 2012 where 100+ civilians were killed in town of Toula; The Beniyas massacre in 2013 of civilians in village of Beyda. 

JB So the culture of Syria includes rights for women, it includes education for women. It includes tolerance for people drinking alcohol. Is that all acceptable to you?
AS When it comes to women’s education – of course. We’ve had universities in Idlib for more than 8 years. I think the percentage of women in universities is more than 60 percent.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY

It is important to understand that the aim of Islamists is to create a modern Islamic state ruled by shari’a and to do so by interpreting the early Islamic sources for themselves. As such, some things will always be the same  – it will always involve an Islamic government in which Muslims rule non-Muslims and shari’a is enforced. However, the actual details of how Islamists apply those principles in the modern world will vary between different Islamist groups.

JB You know that there are secular women in this country who know that they might have to wear hijab. They might have to wear headscarves and cover themselves. Do you think that will become necessary as far as you are concerned?
AS Syria’s problems are much bigger than the issues you are talking about. The Syrian problem is that half of the population was kicked out of Syria and forcibly displaced from their houses. They were targeted with barrel bombs and unguided bombs. Many Syrians drowned while trying to escape to Europe. There are other far more important issues than the ones we are talking about here?

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY
It is normal for women in Islamic countries, such as, for example Pakistan, to have their head covered and is generally seen as a symbol of moral uprightness. This is not a question about tolerance of Christians, it is basically a question about whether the values of secularism which are held by an urban minority will be tolerated in Syria under HTS. al-Sharaa avoids answering this by saying there are far more important issues, because he knows that he needs western aid and trade if his government is to survive. 

JB I agree that there are massive issues to discuss and I am only asking this question because you know there’s been a controversy on social media when the woman covered her head when she was having a photo with you and liberal minded Syrians said ‘this is a sign of oppression’, and very conservative religious minded Syrians, some of them said ‘why is he even having his photo taken with a woman he’s not married to?’ So, its controversial isn’t it? It’s a controversial issue?
AS I did not force her to cover her head. However, this is my personal freedom. I want photos taken for me the way that suits me. This is different than having a law that governs all the country. However, in general, there is a culture in this country that should be taken into consideration in the law. This this matter is decided upon by the legal experts.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY
When he says “this is a matter which should be decided upon by legal experts” – he is basically saying that even in relation to women’s head coverings Islamic scholars will determine what shari’a says and this will then be enforced as law. In other words, whereas in countries such as Pakistan, it is a widely accepted social convention that women should cover their heads in public, in Syria under HTS this will be enforced as part of shari’a.

21:39
JB You must know that many Syrians have their doubts. That they don’t believe that your group has changed, they know where you come from, that originally you were associated with al-Qaeda, and further back you yourself were associated with the group that became Islamic State, so they look at your history and say ‘how can we believe this guy?’
AS There were some [22:00 unclear] as you know. There was a big war happening in Iraq. All Arab and Islamic people were sympathetic to the situation there, we went to defend the people of Iraq regardless of who was fighting there. Then we found ourselves with this group, it was al-Qaeda back then. I did not witness any of the sectarian battles they fought in Iraq. I was in prison at the time al-Qaeda deviated from its path. When I returned to Syria we severed all ties with any foreign group including al-Qaeda. Fighting alongside al-Qaeda is a matter of the past.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY

Al-Sharaa here makes an important distinction between HTS and al-Qaeda by claiming that HTS will not engage in sectarian battles i.e. against Shi’a Muslims. His actual relationship is much more complex as he was part of al-Qaeda in Iraq (which subsequently broke away to form Islamic State) and he personally was sent by then back to Syria to start an Al-Qaeda branch in Syria, which he did under the name al-Nusra Front. In 2016 he merged the al-Nusra Front with a number of other jihadist groups in Idlib province to form Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) which was thereafter no longer known as an al-Qaeda affiliate, although many analysts believe it continued to have a covert relationship with al-Qaeda. 

JB It is absolutely part of the past? You are not going to turn this country into some kind of Islamist dictatorship?
AS I said earlier that the law will govern this country and it is the law which will protect everyone and preserve everyone’s rights. God willing we are not about to change people’s way of life in the country. We are not concerned about changing the democratic structure of the country. I myself should not be able to say that I want Syria to be a certain way. This is illogical. I will leave this whole issue to specialised committees chosen by the people to decide on the country’s next laws.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY
The law he refers to is of course shari’a – he has already said earlier in the interview he will “terminate” the Syrian constitution. The rights it gives to Christians are those of dhimmis. What he actually says about democracy – is that he as the leader of HTS – and effectively the leader of Syria, should not be able to set out a personal political vision for the country. This is because the principles of what the country should be like are set out in shari’a. That is why he then goes on to state that the detail of such a vision should be determined by “specialised committees” i.e. Islamic legal scholars.

JB Let’s talk about wider issues that you face. First of all, this country’s broken. There is a massive amount of destruction, the economy is destroyed, there are huge debts. How do you begin to start dealing with all of that when you are, when the country’s under sanctions, and when major powers around the world, and the United Nations say that you are the leader of a terrorist group?
AS That’s a political classification. We haven’t committed any crimes that justify calling us a terrorist group. In the last 14 years we haven’t targeted any civilians or civilian areas or civilian targets. I understand some countries will be worried by that designation, but it’s not true. Now, after all that has happened, sanctions must be lifted because they were targeted at the old regime. The victim and the oppressor should not be treated in the same way.

LINDISFARNE CENTRE COMMENTARY

Earlier in this BBC podcast Jeremy Bowen points out that HTS have been involved in violence against people who demonstrated against their rule in Idlib Province. HTS are also widely thought to have been behind the April 2013 disappearance of Bishop Yohanna Ibrahim, head of the Syrian Orthodox Church in Aleppo, and Bishop Boulos Yaziji, head of the Greek Orthodox Church. This was the key event which kickstarted the widespread abduction, murder, rape and religious cleansing of Syrian Christians by a range of jihadist groups, including Islamic State, which in 2017 the US State Department officially recognised as “genocide”. HTS were also one of the major jihadist groups who laid siege to Aleppo, including its Christian quarter, before themselves being surrounded by pro-Assad forces in what became known as the siege of Aleppo (2012-16). During this the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that all sides were committing war crimes “of historic proportions”.  As such, the claim that HTS is the “victim” is effectively gaslighting the suffering of Syrian Christians which HTS played a major role in instigating.